Debate about Abortion position (It is a good read, just long)

February 27, 2008 @ 18:32 - Michael

Categories: Uncategorized

Yet another abortion argument...

Michael Secord is me....obviously.


12:46pm Feb 26th

Abortion is a direct statement to how our society and country view life. That just because it was born from an unfortunent circumstance means we can just slaughter it. And I do mean slaughter it. I have wanted to be a father my entire life and I take serious offence to the idea that people agree to killing children just because they dont want it or didnt intend on having it. Im not pushing out the idea of adoption, thats a perfectly fine answer to the rape case. AND it doesnt involve murder. Thats the part people try to run away from. Roe vs. Wade came at a time when we didnt know how developed a fetus or embryo is at certain stages. We knew some things but not nearly as much as now. We can even take 4-D photos at any stage and get a perfect picture of the child. I dare say most abortions occur after the embryo period, meaning after 8 weeks. And like my note said, the child gets a heartbeat at 5 weeks. How is that not murder? People look at it from the wrong angle. So a child is born because of rape- they have the chance of being put into an adoption home. People in africa are born into poverty and starvation every day and no one would agree to killing them. Now did you actually read my note or just notice it was on abortion and decided to chime in. Because the facts in there are disgusting.

Michael Secord

1:18pm Feb 26th

I read your note Ryan, which is why i was worded the way I was. I do agree that adoption is a perfectly acceptable alternative. I would very much prefer adoption over something such as abortion. But there are always the cases of "what if?" that the general rules never have nor never will cover.

In the case of rape I don't see how it can be justified to more/less punish the woman for such a heinous crime against her. She did not choose to have that happen to her, and then telling her that she HAS to carry out the pregnancy is more disgusting than the abortion itself. I do believe though, that the abortion can be taken care of before there is any trace of a heartbeat.

And as ugly as this next comment will sound, it fits the definition perfectly. An unborn fetus (up to roughly 21 weeks) is still considered, in all sense of the definition, a parasite. The fetus cannot live without a host (granted, in some cases it is possible with heavy medical involvement, it can) therefore, not making it murder. I am not saying that someone who endures severe brain trauma or some other medical issue that leaves them in the same type of state is the same thing. That is an entirely different issue in itself.

But in all honesty, I go back to what I said before. Everybody has their own opinions. I believe it is a woman's choice, irregardless of what anyone else thinks. Look at other animals. PLENTY of species have to fight for their lives from the time they are laid until they are adults. There are plenty of species that even eat their young. In what way makes us, as human beings, superior to such things?


1:32pm Feb 26th

As far as animals go, were superior because we can question our existence, to say the least. We make a vast majority of moral decisions. The closest thing to morals that animals deal with is caring for their young, which is in most cases instinctive. Ask any mother. Guys do have a say, on a case to case basis. The choices we make affect everyone around us. If this woman is raped and gets aborted- thats tons of money, extreme psychological damage to the woman (which is rarely discussed if ever) and a life lost. What if she has a boyfriend. That could be his money too, he has to help her through the emotional trauma, and what if he wants to have the kid and raise it to be one more good person in the world, as oppose to the scum who helped create the child. He doesnt have a say? Or a husband, or even a father. The physical pain a woman goes through for an abortion is very severe, just like child birth.

Abortion can be taken care of before the heartbeak.......most women dont even know they are pregnant until the 6-8 week.

Do you believe in a soul? Something that isnt physical but defines who we are as people and our standard to which we live our lives? When does a human get a soul? When it can breathe? think? talk? birth? Christ gives an answer, but im operating undet the notion that everyone assumes the bible is crap. So in that case, who's to say when we have a soul? Isn't that what defines us as humans AND distict from the animals. What if we get a soul at the moment of conception......wouldnt it be murder then? and since we dont know when the soul occurs- arent we better safe than sorry, in the topic of murder.

Let me ask you something, do you believe in absolute? That there is anything that is an absolute 100% no chance of wrong truth? Or is everything just relative whatever do what you want think what you want everyone is right, for themselves?

Michael Secord

2:43pm Feb 26th

That's the thing though, we are not superior. You can't say that for sure. You can't prove that animals are any less sophisticated than we, as humans are.

I do believe in a soul, but that is an immeasurable "property" so one can not be 100% sure whether or not they actually exist, and if so, when/how they are created and when/how they are destroyed.

I do NOT believe in absolute. There is NOTHING in this world that is absolute, everything is relative. The earth, moon, sun, the solar system, universe, you, and I. We are all relative. How do we know that we are the only "supreme beings" in the entire Universe, if such said thing actually exists?

Therein lies the problem with the human race and life as we know it. There is no such thing as absolute, and there is no way that one can be sure of anything. Science MAY prove things, at bare minimum it provides theories that you can use to attempt to determine certain things, or you can believe in faith, the bible, whatever religion it is that you believe.


2:47pm Feb 26th

"There is NOTHING in this world that is absolute"

isnt that an absolute in itself? It is. If there is no absolute...that in itself is an absolute. Which proves that there are absolutes.

Michael Secord

2:54pm Feb 26th

Even that isn't an absolute. Absolute is in itself a paradox.


3:02pm Feb 26th

So first ther is no absolute and now its just a paradow we cant understand? To say there is no absolute is an absolute. Which means absolutes exist. Whether you choose to believe it or not.

how about morals. Is there a defining moral. Is there anything in this world that is just plain wrong or anything that is totally right?

Michael Secord

3:57pm Feb 26th

If you really want to break it down, everything is a paradox based on the fact that life itself is a paradox, which in turn is based on the fact that absolutes are a paradox.

For the sake of life, we have to ASSUME that there are some absolutes, but in all reality there aren't.

Morals can be defined, but only on an individual basis. Some people can share the same morals, but that doesn't make one persons morals any more right or wrong than someone else's morals.


4:07pm Feb 26th

How about in Papau New Guinea, in the tribes. When a woman gives birth the child comes out and no one touches it. The tribe looks it over thoroughly. If there are any signs of something different about the baby or if it even stares for too long they throw it outside for the ants to devour. You can't say that thats wrong? Getting past any vague liberalism or self proclaimed dont feel that thats wrong? and that that should never ever ever happen under any circumstances no matter what? And intelligence of modern science is not issue here. In Iran it is legal and socially acceptable for a man to beat his wife whenever he chooses. That can be allowed because of a "different culture" or a "different mindset"?

Paradox is a word made up to explain something that higher intelligent people can't explain. Because we don't have all the answers but think we do, if our human brains can't wrap around something that makes it a paradox? I know lots of people that can explain the mysteries of life. I feel confident in many of the "fuzzy" areas myself. Is it because you choose to not accept certain truths that makes life a paradox?

Isn't inertia an absolute?

What about the law of cause and effect. A very basic scientific principle. Can you come up with a single thing that happens that doesn't require a "cause" to happen.

Michael Secord

4:28pm Feb 26th

I never said that's right. But just because someone has a different cultural and religious background doesn't make it wrong. What is perceived as wrong in one culture doesn't mean it's wrong in another. I don't care WHO believes WHAT. It's talk like this that has caused such distress in the human race. The "civilized" people seem to think that if it doesn't conform to their "standards" that it isn't right.

If you want to go along the lines of this, do you believe that it's right that the government can take someone's life for killing someone? An eye for an eye, per se?

If paradox is made up, then definitively explain those items are are so listed as "paradoxes". But saying that paradoxes are made up, how much else do you ASSUME is true is not actually made up. For instance, cause and effect. There is no guarantee that for one action there is an effect for it. There is also the anomaly and coincidence. Those can/do easily play into the equation, but because they can't be scientifically proven, they are discarded as fact, hence why they have cause/effect.

How do you know inertia is an absolute? If you want to argue inertia, just throw a case out there. Take the plane on a conveyor belt issue.


5:08pm Feb 26th

So you this the tribes in Papau New Guinea should be allowed to do that to new borns freely because thats their culture and their ideas?

I truly have a hard time believing that if you and your woman took a trip to the middle east (not likely, but possible), and some guy decided she was showing too much skin because she wasnt fully covered in their garb, and they stone her to death (which DOES happen), you would just say well its their culture. who am i to judge?

I do believe that a properly appointed group of authority should be allowed to put a criminal to death, based on that criminal taking another human beings life. But careful with that eye for an eye thing. It is only meant for the case of a murder, not to kill. To kill someone is like in war or defense. Murder is an unjustified killing.

Im not sure if I know what you mean by the items that are so listed as paradoxes.

I base truth on Gods word (bible) first and scientific FACT second. Fact, not theory. Obviously the bible doesn't talk about gravity, other than to say God created the heavens and the earth and everything in between. But that doesn't make it not true. Bible is meant to give us fact to prepare us for living a Godly life. It's not a text book. Science can prove over and over and over that gravity exists.

And i suppose I know what you mean when you say there is no "garuntee" for cause and effect. But there is no garuntee that the wind exists, other than it happens. It affects us. But then again, maybe there is a garuntee in the fact that no matter what- if you kick a ball in an open room it will go in the direction you kicked it. The garuntee is that it always happens no matter what since the beginning of time and theres no reason to foresee it not happening. I'll take that.

Beyond that, the whole can/do anomaly equation talk i just didnt really understand.

Michael Secord

6:55pm Feb 26th

Honestly....Yes. Would you find it very appropriate/right if someone came into your life and told you that your culture is screwed up, and not right and force you to change? I highly doubt it. That's why the world is so diverse, it has to be. You can't make everyone happy/kosher with a single, or at least very limited, set of beliefs.

This is exactly what I"m talking about. You can't force your beliefs on another culture. This just goes to prove it.

It's a technicality....

There are all kinds of things that are referred to as a paradox....just Google it and I'm sure you'll find some.

Herein lies another issue. Your truth is based on the bible, but not all truths are. Some are based purely on scientific fact, while other are based purely on other religions/religious works, etc.

There may be the guarantee for that, but like we agreed, there really isn't any guarantee for anything. You can count on it happening, but only by trial and error, there really wouldn't be any "for sure" reason for it happening if you base purely on cause and effect. Though, we can be "sure" that you can always count on it happening using both scientific and mathematical methods, equations, and theories.


9:03pm Feb 26th

I truly don't believe that, that you would just sit back and watch your loved ones (girlfriend, wife, child, mother, father, etc.) be murdered just because that society said so. I very much challenge you to say to your significant other that despite your professed affection for her, you would sit back while she was murdered in the name of your greater love of making everyone happy and not disturbing other cultures. If you would be too hesitant or afraid to tell her.....then how much do you actually believe that? But should you truly mean that then my heart goes out to you for whatever you have had to endure to see so little in human life.

There has to be an absolute because it is truly and fully insane to accept an answer that someone would just allow a loved one to be slaughtered just to respect someone elses belief. If God is our absolute truth then that does solve this "paradox" of life. Within the bible there are zero contradictions. I can't think of anything man has created that isnt able to be contradicted within itself.

Its not a matter of forcing "your" beliefs on others, its a matter of holding people up to the one standard. Even beyond God and all that I think its fair to say that all human life is precious and everyone should hold it in high regard and choose to take it with great haste. Would you be so willing to give your own life up in that previous scenario in order to preserve anothers culture? While attending bible school I am convicted of my own beliefs from what this society has taught me every single day. And I welcome it and do my best to conform to it because I know I can rely on it. It has no contradictions within itself. To say you would sit back and allow people to be killed to preserve another culture goes against law itself, which is a contradiction. If you were to join a gang, their culture says you cant join unless you prove yourself by killing someone. People do it every day. Should we respect that? Thats not in a foreign land, thats right here in the USA? But doesnt our culture also say that murder is a crime? Some states say that if there is a crime being committed that you can stop its your civil duty to help. Thats a law in places. How can you hold that up with your theory? And its not another paradox because there is an answer. The answer is that you dont cater to other cultures. You cater to truth.

"but like we agreed, there really isn't any guarantee for anything"

never in my life have I or will I agree to that. There is a garuntee in everything God says, however I do try to avoid using truths relating to the bible since thats not something you set your standards on. But even on a plain secular level......letting an Iranian stone your loved one to death and not trying to stop it at all because you dont want to offend their culture is sick. And I challenge you to find a few others who go inline with that idea. No word play either, that exact scenario

Michael Secord

10:39pm Feb 26th

I never said that I would sit back and watch that happen. You are right, I couldn't sit back and watch it.

I won't ever allow that to happen. IF (and that's a big if) I was going to a country that had such a culture, I would be sure to read up and study the norms of the society so as to avoid a situation like that. I could not and will not let something like that happen to my girlfriend (any friend/family member for that matter).

I will concur here. There is an absolute, but that's only an absolute of an opinion/personal fact, not an absolute of a large widespread issue as we started this discussion with. Once you leave the comfort zone of personal opinions/preferences, absolutes are more/less non-existent as I said earlier.

It is a matter of forcing one's beliefs on one another:

"Even beyond God and all that I think its fair to say that all human life is precious and everyone should hold it in high regard and choose to take it with great haste."

That is YOUR opinion. That doesn't mean it's fact nor does it mean that it applies to all people.

I never said that I would sit back and allow people to be killed. I am saying I would leave it be. It is their culture/religion to preserve, not mine to destroy. That goes back to what I said before, you wouldn't want someone to force their religion/culture on you, so why try to do it to someone else?

A gang is VERY much different than a religion/culture in the context that I am referring to. A gang is no more than a small band of people whom believe that they are superior/greater/more privileged than "normal" people. I agree that we all have a civil duty, but then again, you have to realize, that's in our widely practiced/marginally accepted culture. On what the USA was founded on, those morals/beliefs, are what the laws were based on and how they are determined. You can't cater to anything....we don't really know what the truth is. You say you don't want to bring the bible into it, but I can only assume that's what you are doing here by saying you are catering to the truth, you are catering to what is in the bible. But that's an entirely different discussion.

That is your personal preference. You choose to believe what you read in the bible, whereas not everyone does. And again, I never said that I would allow the stoning of a loved one. There would be more to a trip to such a cultured country than just up and going. If that was the culture there, there would be a HIGH probability that i would not go. And even if I do, I would be versed enough in their culture to not allow it to happen.


11:15pm Feb 26th

I said:

"I truly have a hard time believing that if you and your woman took a trip to the middle east (not likely, but possible), and some guy decided she was showing too much skin because she wasnt fully covered in their garb, and they stone her to death (which DOES happen), you would just say well its their culture. who am i to judge?"

To which you replied:

"Honestly....Yes. Would you find it very appropriate/right if someone came into your life and told you that your culture is screwed up, and not right and force you to change? I highly doubt it. That's why the world is so diverse, it has to be. You can't make everyone happy/kosher with a single, or at least very limited, set of beliefs."

Those are my words and your words. No dancing around it. Plain as day. I say you would just respect their culture, meaning allow it to happen, and you agree. Those are the words I want you to be confident enough in to show your loved ones. Those ones right up there. To say that we need to obligate ourself to everyones seperate ways of life is to allow them to take advantage of us. What if my culture said I shouldnt respect others culture (like how many islamic fundamentalists say all christians should be killed). Should we respect that culture? Or how about nazi germany? ITs their way of thinking and their opinion that the jews are inferior and should be terminated.

Tell me right now flat out........should we ever in any way respect the personal preferenes or ideas or opinions or lifestyle of the Nazi party? Would it have been right for us to allow them to do their own thing and kill all those jews? Give me the straight answer.....yes or no?

Michael Secord

11:27pm Feb 26th

Your words:

"So you this the tribes in Papau New Guinea should be allowed to do that to new borns freely because thats their culture and their ideas?

I truly have a hard time believing that if you and your woman took a trip to the middle east (not likely, but possible), and some guy decided she was showing too much skin because she wasnt fully covered in their garb, and they stone her to death (which DOES happen), you would just say well its their culture. who am i to judge?"

My answer:

"Honestly....Yes. Would you find it very appropriate/right if someone came into your life and told you that your culture is screwed up, and not right and force you to change? I highly doubt it. That's why the world is so diverse, it has to be. You can't make everyone happy/kosher with a single, or at least very limited, set of beliefs."

I only didn't put in a < br> as the next paragraph that you had went along with the first. I was not agreeing in any way to allowing the abuse of a loved one due to ones belief.

No, I never said we should oblige every culture/religion out there, but we do have to respect them. You can't force everyone to follow your beliefs, just as well as you can't have someone else's beliefs forced upon you.

You CAN separate yourself from that. You do NOT HAVE to subject yourself to someone else's beliefs/religion/culture. That's the beauty of the world today.

Here is where I digress to my VERY original point that sparked this entire conversation:

"IMHO - Both sides should just agree to disagree. If you don't agree with the choice that someone makes, don't worry about it. Unless it directly affects you, then don't worry about intruding into other people's lives. Nobody is perfect, and not one person has the right nor the power to judge someone else."

And since when did the Nazi party become an actual religion/culture? It was neither. It was the wild opinion/belief of one man who was in a position of power to instill fear into his "people" and force the following of his "ways". That also is it's own separate debate.


Today at 12:22am

The Nazi party went beyond culture and became law. It was its own governmental system. That's why it was called the Nazi "party". Like the republican party or the democrat party. Governemt is basically an official culture. Peoples beliefs unified and made into a set of standards. Kind of like how the pilgrims came here with certain BELIEFS of what freedom should be and then made it into law, and the basis for our entire government. So if you feel we should respect others cultures the certainly we should respect others governments. The nazi party, in its day, was most of Germany. Seen how big germany is? It was its own culture, its own way of thinking, that existed separate to opposing cultures, like Christianity or Judaism, or tribal cultures. So now that we have established that the nazi's were their own culture, or society, and actually going beyond that into their own government- should we respect them and their ideas or should we not tolerate the nazi way?

Michael Secord

Today at 9:23am

That's my point. The Nazi "party" wasn't a religion or culture, and was forced upon people. But just because it's law, doesn't make it right. Which is what I'm trying to get across.

What one particular religion/culture believes shouldn't be imposed upon all of the people who may or may not share the same beliefs.

Nazi's have their own "culture" but they aren't forcing it upon you. You don't live there and aren't being forced to live by those beliefs. You can choose to not live there, therefore not having to share those beliefs.

Every different culture deserves it's own respect. There are many other cultures out there that are just as "bad" or worse than the Nazis. You will never be able to stop those types of cultures. You don't have to tolerate them, but you don't have to deal with them either.

It's not fair to the individual person if you try to impose your beliefs on them. It wouldn't be fair for me to have the power to tell you that from now on you can't ever believe in God or read the bible, just as it wouldn't be fair for someone else to have the power to force people to share the same beliefs as them.


Today at 9:57am

ok, so you agree the nazi party was a culture. and thats what we are talking about. Cultures and respecting them. The nazi party DID force their beliefs on people. What do you think the entire world war 2 was about? They had every intention of spreading their "ideas" and culture to the entire world, but thankfully, the United States culture of "we shouldnt kill jews" disrespected the culture of the nazi's and got rid of them. My point being that we cant always just let people believe whatever. And with that whose to say which ones are allowed to remain and whichs ones should people interject in? In my opinion that completely destroys your theory that we have to just play nice to other cultures. Yes respect people, but that doesnt make them correct or allowed to do whatever. This worlds ugliness comes from some of the disgraceful things people allow in their cultures. and if Gods purpose was allowed to be the one and only truth, there would be no more ugliness. Man kind will never get it right, we have no hope. People think we are headed towards some kind of Eutopia of tolerance and respect- its just people cowering in fear of standing up for whats right. Its a liberal mindset that says everyone can be right in their own way when thats completely contradictory. What if I feel its ok to go to your house and shoot you, or better yet, go into a mall and kill 10 people. I feel that its right, whose to say im wrong? Thats why we cant just allow people to believe everyone is right for whatever they think, life is not relative and there is an underlining truth. Without that we are free to do whatever we want and rationalize it.

Michael Secord

Today at 11:18am

No, I don't agree that the Nazi party was a culture. It was the crazed beliefs of one person who had enough power to make it law. Granted, there are people who followed the same beliefs, but there were obviously people who didn't like them and were thereby forced to follow them.

What you mentioned about WWII is the same concept as what I"m trying to get across. You can NOT force your ideas on everyone. It doesn't work that way. Ever. Period.

If you feel it's ok, that doesn't make it right. But what religion/culture is that? That is just the belief/opinion of one person.


Today at 11:41am

And the Islamic fundamentalists belief/opinion is that killing me in the name of their god will earn them eternity in heaven. Thats the belief/opinion of thousands of people. Are they right? In any way? Is there a single word in that that is ok? Should I respect their wishes to kill all Christians?

And as far as my nazi analogy, if you look up the definition of "culture" and "nazi" at it will completely destroy your entire first paragraph. Not only were they a culture they took over other cultures. I realize forcing beliefs on others is wrong, my point is that you are coming from the idea that there is no absolute right or wrong in this world. Personally, I say that no matter what- killing all jews because they are jews is ABSOLUTE wrong. I say killing all christians because your "god" says to is ABSOLUTE wrong.

there are so many things in this world that people try to make wishy washy because they want to avoid the truth. Not the truth thats trying to over power you now, a truth that existed before any of us (human) were even here.

If man can ignore/take away/decide there is no God of the bible then you know who becomes You want to believe that everyone creates their own "right and wrong" because it feels good and if there was an absolute right and an absolute wrong then your thoughts dont line up and you would have to conform to them. I say "you" loosely meaning all of mankind. People like general authority because it keeps others off their backs. We like cops because they stop killers and murderers. But once we are all alone, no police officer can tell us what to do. And more importantly can't judge us based on our hearts. We hate the idea of someone that can convict us of our thoughts as well as our actions because that means there no place to hide from our true evil. There is an absolute in this world but no one sees it because no one wants to. You want to know why you dont believe in the God of the's because you dont see Him and cant prove Him. Its because you dont really want Him. You dont want there to be a being that knows your true heart and can judge you on all that. But that doesnt mean He's not there, it just means you dont want to see Him. And unless you honestly and humbly attempt to see Him then you never will. Thats the real truth and thats life. So I have a difficult time listening to others views on truth and reality because they havent seen it. You dont get someones opinion of a movie that they have only read reviews about and havent actually seen. This is of course the part where you say "thats your belief" and you say that because you arent actually listening to what I said above. The God of the bible is real and actively seek you.....Michael Secord. He loves you more than any parent or girlfriend or best friend ever could. And He is going to spend your entire 70, 80, 90 years on earth trying to tell you and show you. But you are never going to see it because your back is turned. So i challenge you- before you decide "what life is" and what "truth" is......look at it from every angle. You dont solve a math question by only looking at one number. Face God honestly and humbly and He WILL show himself to you. Or just say no thats your belief and not mine and miss out. If everything is relative and everyone has their own personal right, then in my "opinion" and millions others- those who dont accpt Christ will spend eternity in hell. Isn;t that atleast worth checking into? I mean if im wrong we all get buring in the ground and i've just spent a life trying to be a nice guy, who cares. But if im have to look your creator in the eye and say you were told about Him and chose to ignore. and spend eternity in suffering. To me, that warrants a lil looking into. Honest and humble searching. However I think this debate is done. I've worked my way through everything and meanings of words and phrases just keep changing. So I leave you with my words above and honestly hope and pray you decide to "respect my opinion" and actively seek yours, mine, and our God

Michael Secord

Today at 1:14pm

Yes, everybody deserves respect regardless of their cultural/religious background, whether or not you agree with it. As for the Nazi, that was not a culture as I said before, it was the crazed idea of one person who made it law. There isn't any escaping law except for moving and war. And Nazi-ism was taken care of with WW2.

I'm glad we've come to a front. That's all I had stated originally. I respect your position, as I hope you respect mine and others that don't agree.

There are two sides to every issue, this one being a very passionate issue for many people.


That's it. Feel free to comment all you want. I will post up an actual blog when I get some more time. Enjoy. TTFN

'til next time